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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 8:27 am 
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Wonder if KC calls Pax in the morning asking him what he should wear?

If Thibbs is let go on Friday, it just destroys KC. He really just becomes Pax's personal media outlet.

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 8:44 am 
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 8:56 am 
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Nas wrote:
Saying that the Bulls brought in anti Thibs guys this year is wrong. He went out and helped recruit Marshmelo. Marshmelo has played defense only a handful of times his entire career. Thibs also recruited Gasol. He knew Mirotic was coming over too.

Thibs never had an issue with guys that weren't great defensively. His belief was he could coach them up. In years past he was able to. This year he didn't have as much consistent success. Not sure if it was because the Bulls were undermining him or not.




The simple fact that he helped recruit Marshmelo should be reason enough for you to turn state's evidence on him. Not to mention the fact that he helped recruit Gasol. Talk about doubling down on a bad bet.

If he didn't have an issue with guys that were bad defensively why did he consistently sit Boozer during fourth quarters? Why does he not play McDermott when everyone knows that the Bulls need shooters and he is the best shooter on the team? Why are Hinrich and Gibson paraded around even though everyone knows that Mirotic and Snell are much better offensively.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 9:00 am 
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Nas wrote:
I don't think the players quit. There just wasn't the consistency we were used to seeing. I believe that Noah and Taj being bad to mediocre to bad most of the season played a role.


I'm focusing on game six. If you're trying hard you don't lose at home by 20+ to a team playing without Love and Irving. I liken the performance to the time NO lost by something like 50 at home in the playoffs in an elimination game. Byron Scott was fired shortly thereafter.

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 9:01 am 
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Now the Bulls are pushing the story that Thibs is preventing them from getting compensation. That he's the one saying he'll sit out a season before he helps the Bulls.

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 9:02 am 
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Nas wrote:
Now the Bulls are pushing the story that Thibs is preventing them from getting compensation. That he's the one saying he'll sit out a season before he helps the Bulls.


Of course he would. why the fuck not? :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 9:10 am 
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long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
Saying that the Bulls brought in anti Thibs guys this year is wrong. He went out and helped recruit Marshmelo. Marshmelo has played defense only a handful of times his entire career. Thibs also recruited Gasol. He knew Mirotic was coming over too.

Thibs never had an issue with guys that weren't great defensively. His belief was he could coach them up. In years past he was able to. This year he didn't have as much consistent success. Not sure if it was because the Bulls were undermining him or not.




The simple fact that he helped recruit Marshmelo should be reason enough for you to turn state's evidence on him. Not to mention the fact that he helped recruit Gasol. Talk about doubling down on a bad bet.

If he didn't have an issue with guys that were bad defensively why did he consistently sit Boozer during fourth quarters? Why does he not play McDermott when everyone knows that the Bulls need shooters and he is the best shooter on the team? Why are Hinrich and Gibson paraded around even though everyone knows that Mirotic and Snell are much better offensively.


I think it was a risk reward type of thing. He still believes defense is important but he knows that the Bulls need to score and need a guy that can get his own shot when things aren't going well. That's why he was all in on Marshmelo. Gasol provided post scoring and championship experience. Thibs has always been willing to sacrifice defense if the player is important offensively. Just look at Rose and a guy like Augustine (Thibs wanted the Bulls to keep him but they chose Brooks). The problem this year was guys like Noah and Taj couldn't cover for them because they were bad to mediocre.

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 9:12 am 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
You're far too charitable IMO. I don't think the management was deferring to Thibs at all in previous years but merely has no real idea what they want and have gone along with what seems trendy for years now, even pre-dating the current coach. This post on blogabull captures this well:
Quote:
There was a really funny quote from Paxson about their minute restrictions being "common sense"
Which, of course, doesn’t explain Paxson’s lack of common sense minutes restrictions over his first dozen years of running the team.

To be honest, I’ve come to the conclusion that Paxson is much less Notre Dame smarty-pants and much more dumb jock than I used to. If you look at his history, he’s basically gone for trends over and over again.

1. His first iteration was building a team based on defense and role players in the Pistons mold. He was all about "accountability" and "building a culture of winning"

2. That flamed out and he attempted to go in the complete opposite direction by hiring Mike D’Antoni. D’Antoni is mainly famous for being the exact opposite of the philosophy Paxson had spent years preaching.

3. And of course, he up and quit because being a full-time GM was too stressful.

4. The ultimate hire, VDN, was basically at Doug Collins’ suggestion, and after Paxson assaulted him (so much for the accountability), the next hire, Thibs, was basically Reinsdorf’s decision. Pax was pretty quiet the last few years, mainly emerging to talk about how they valued playing hard and full throttle all the time. And how preparation and playing hard translated into the playoffs.

5. Then, we’ve got this year’s Pax, who once again has done a heel turn and thinks its "common sense" to rest up when the players feel like it. Not because they’re actually hurt, but… because that’ll keep them fresh and unprepared for the high-stress playoffs.

Basically, the guy has completely changed his tune several times. If there’s any sort of core philosophy driving his thoughts on basketball, I’d like to know what it is.
I'd also point out that the offensive players they went out to acquire increased rather than decreased the likelihood of continuing to play a standard halfcourt set. Gasol can still score but you can't really use him at this age for the kind of motion-based offense you're going to get from a guy like Hoiberg.



I will grant you the fact that Paxson has evolved but he should have evolved. That Pistons style model worked for about a yr but you win with All Stars. The trick is to get them to buy into the team concept alas San Antonio. The drafting of Rose changed the game for Paxson. He first attempted to surround Rose with good talent but not necessarily all star talent. Miami shattered the dream of winning a championship with one superstar and a supporting cast of good but not necessarily great players.

Rose's injuries have forced Paxson to change course. It has forced him build a team that is not Rose centered. This is difficult because Rose ties up so much of the salary cap. Let's not forget that Paxson signed Gasol when most people on here thought he was done and believed that Gibson should be the starting four.

Paxson also drafted Jimmy Butler a player that most people were willing to deal only one yr ago.

Paxson traded Luol Deng a move that Thibs was not in favor of doing. This move not only relieved that Bulls of a player that is on the decline, but also freed up money so that the team could sign Gasol.

Paxson identified Rose as the best player in the draft the yr he was drafted. It seems easy now but a number of GMS were in favor of drafting Michael Beasley.

Paxson also plucked Noah with the 9th pick in the draft.

Paxson traded for Deng with the 7th pick in the draft

Paxson drafted Ben Gordon who was probably the top 6th man in the league and a very valuable player during his time with the Bulls.

Paxson drafted Taj Gibson late in the first round. Though i think he is vastly overrated he is a valuable pick if you take into account where he was drafted and also look at the guys that were taken late in that particular yrs draft.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 9:59 am 
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long time guy wrote:
I will grant you the fact that Paxson has evolved but he should have evolved.
I tend to want a GM who already possesses an evolved vision and not simply going along with the rest of the league.
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Rose's injuries have forced Paxson to change course. It has forced him build a team that is not Rose centered. This is difficult because Rose ties up so much of the salary cap.
Hmmm. I wonder which unknown decision maker is responsible for Rose tying up so much of the salary cap...

Which isn't to say that the deal shouldn't have been made but it seems mighty convenient to treat that contract purely as a matter of bad luck rather than something they voluntarily chose to do. I'd also point out that this year's team still seemed mighty Rose-centered and certainly not a drastic departure from the model for 2011-2012.

GarPax are going to further hamstring future cap flexibility by also signing Butler to the max this off-season, something they're being forced to do now since their initial extension deal was completely laughable. Keep that in mind if and when Butler's contract becomes another albatross.
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Paxson traded Luol Deng a move that Thibs was not in favor of doing. This move not only relieved that Bulls of a player that is on the decline, but also freed up money so that the team could sign Gasol.
Uh what? Deng's contract was up at the end of the season; at most that kept the Bulls from being in the luxury tax, but saying that move allowed them to sign Gasol is a stretch at best. Also since you were highlighting how bad the Bulls were on offense last year, I'd ask how trading away your second best offensive player and best healthy one would or should have impacted the offense with a coach more competent than Thibodeau.

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Paxson identified Rose as the best player in the draft the yr he was drafted. It seems easy now but a number of GMS were in favor of drafting Michael Beasley
Rose was still clearly the majority pick for number 1, and let's not forget that being in that position was a matter of pure luck.

Quote:
Paxson also plucked Noah with the 9th pick in the draft.

Paxson traded for Deng with the 7th pick in the draft

Paxson drafted Ben Gordon who was probably the top 6th man in the league and a very valuable player during his time with the Bulls.

Paxson drafted Taj Gibson late in the first round. Though i think he is vastly overrated he is a valuable pick if you take into account where he was drafted and also look at the guys that were taken late in that particular yrs draft.
Are any of these guys pieces of a championship team or not? Because you started your apologetic for the front office by saying they realized they needed more than very good pieces around Rose, and you've just listed a bunch of guys who would tend to fit my definition of very good. Also you can't evaluate any GM by just looking at their success in drafts, and it would be revisionist to say the least to gloss over a certain first round trade Paxson was all-in on.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 10:16 am 
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Nas wrote:
The Bulls were actually better offensively this year despite only having their starters play about 20 games together. The playoffs were different. Even with injuries you can't have 6 mins stretches where you don't score. Some people blame that on coaching. That's fine. I saw players missing uncontested shots and layups or Rose playing hero ball. When he misses 13 straight shots he shouldn't be on the floor.


They were actually worst defensively this year :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 10:19 am 
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Looking at Paxson's draft record,he has had great success with some low end (for the NBA) Draft picks. How can you blame Pax for FA failings when it's up to the players IF they want to come to Chicago? Maybe a kinder,gentler Coach could entice more FA's.

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 10:21 am 
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Derrick Rose contract and GarPax inability to find another scorer hurt the Bulls. They've never been able to make the big trade or sign the big free agent. They always seem to finish 2nd.

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 10:29 am 
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Nas wrote:
Derrick Rose contract and GarPax inability to find another scorer hurt the Bulls. They've never been able to make the big trade or sign the big free agent. They always seem to finish 2nd.



Marshmelo's refusal to sign with the Bulls had nothing to do with Pax's inability. It had to do with money. Phil Jackson is beloved by everyone let's see which big time free agents he will be able to sign. That is talk show psycho babble. That is the sort of thinking that has you thinking you can sign Tracy McGrady by sending Bennie the Bull. The NBA structured their CBA so that it would be difficult for free agents to leave their current team. That's why most free agents tend to stay with their home team. Pau Gasol was a big time free agent when you really think about it. He is a Hall of Famer that actually played like a Hall of Famer this yr. He also took less money to come here. Is that a reflection of Paxson's inability to sign free agents?


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 10:30 am 
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Nas wrote:
Derrick Rose contract and GarPax inability to find another scorer hurt the Bulls. They've never been able to make the big trade or sign the big free agent. They always seem to finish 2nd.

Pau was big!

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 10:43 am 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
long time guy wrote:
I will grant you the fact that Paxson has evolved but he should have evolved.
I tend to want a GM who already possesses an evolved vision and not simply going along with the rest of the league.
Quote:
Rose's injuries have forced Paxson to change course. It has forced him build a team that is not Rose centered. This is difficult because Rose ties up so much of the salary cap.
Hmmm. I wonder which unknown decision maker is responsible for Rose tying up so much of the salary cap...

Which isn't to say that the deal shouldn't have been made but it seems mighty convenient to treat that contract purely as a matter of bad luck rather than something they voluntarily chose to do. I'd also point out that this year's team still seemed mighty Rose-centered and certainly not a drastic departure from the model for 2011-2012.

GarPax are going to further hamstring future cap flexibility by also signing Butler to the max this off-season, something they're being forced to do now since their initial extension deal was completely laughable. Keep that in mind if and when Butler's contract becomes another albatross.
Quote:
Paxson traded Luol Deng a move that Thibs was not in favor of doing. This move not only relieved that Bulls of a player that is on the decline, but also freed up money so that the team could sign Gasol.
Uh what? Deng's contract was up at the end of the season; at most that kept the Bulls from being in the luxury tax, but saying that move allowed them to sign Gasol is a stretch at best. Also since you were highlighting how bad the Bulls were on offense last year, I'd ask how trading away your second best offensive player and best healthy one would or should have impacted the offense with a coach more competent than Thibodeau.

Quote:
Paxson identified Rose as the best player in the draft the yr he was drafted. It seems easy now but a number of GMS were in favor of drafting Michael Beasley
Rose was still clearly the majority pick for number 1, and let's not forget that being in that position was a matter of pure luck.

Quote:
Paxson also plucked Noah with the 9th pick in the draft.

Paxson traded for Deng with the 7th pick in the draft

Paxson drafted Ben Gordon who was probably the top 6th man in the league and a very valuable player during his time with the Bulls.

Paxson drafted Taj Gibson late in the first round. Though i think he is vastly overrated he is a valuable pick if you take into account where he was drafted and also look at the guys that were taken late in that particular yrs draft.
Are any of these guys pieces of a championship team or not? Because you started your apologetic for the front office by saying they realized they needed more than very good pieces around Rose, and you've just listed a bunch of guys who would tend to fit my definition of very good. Also you can't evaluate any GM by just looking at their success in drafts, and it would be revisionist to say the least to gloss over a certain first round trade Paxson was all-in on.




Noah Deng and Gordon are all championship caliber players. Is Patty Mills a championship caliber player? What about Mario Chalmers and Norris Cole? What about Danny Green? How about Tyson Chandler? None of these players were considered championship caliber players until they actually won a championship. That is what I mean by Bernstein like thinking. You can't have all superstars.

Its not Paxson's fault that Rose had two debilitating injuries. You are asking him to predict the future. I don't even blame Thibs and the minutes thing as a reason for the injuries. He gave a max deal to a guy that had just won an MVP award and somehow he is blamed for that. How many hindsighters were stating on here NO! when the deal was made. Probably none I'm sure.

Your Butler retort is also flawed because he offered Butler a solid deal before the yr started and Butler turned it down. Butler gambled on himself and won. That's not Paxson's fault either. The people on this board didn't even think that Butler was worth the $12 mil per that Paxson offered and now Paxson is stupid because Butler turned out to be worth more.

There is a lot of revisionism going on. Since we are doing this lets look at where the Bulls were when he took over. Paxson made the Bulls a better team instantly. Look at the Pre Rose moves. People can say he lucked into Rose which he did. But the Bulls were viable even without Rose and Paxson has drafted guys that turned out to be all stars that were not named Derrick Rose. He has to get some credit for that.

In what world is an all star caliber guy not a championship caliber guy. The world of the message board obviously


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 10:47 am 
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long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
Derrick Rose contract and GarPax inability to find another scorer hurt the Bulls. They've never been able to make the big trade or sign the big free agent. They always seem to finish 2nd.



Marshmelo's refusal to sign with the Bulls had nothing to do with Pax's inability. It had to do with money. Phil Jackson is beloved by everyone let's see which big time free agents he will be able to sign. That is talk show psycho babble. That is the sort of thinking that has you thinking you can sign Tracy McGrady by sending Bennie the Bull. The NBA structured their CBA so that it would be difficult for free agents to leave their current team. That's why most free agents tend to stay with their home team. Pau Gasol was a big time free agent when you really think about it. He is a Hall of Famer that actually played like a Hall of Famer this yr. He also took less money to come here. Is that a reflection of Paxson's inability to sign free agents?


Gasol was great until he got hurt but no one but Paxson would classify a guy that took a MLE contract and is damn near 40 as a big time free agent signing. He took less money to play for a winner. Leaving the Lakers wasn't hard. Unlike other teams (Spurs and Thunder ) the Bulls were able to give him the money and the starting spot he wanted. Thibs and Noah closed the deal. Marshmelo and LeBron were the big fish. Marshmelo was torn and ultimately the Bulls couldn't convince him to sign.

Ultimately the Bulls went into another season without a star player. Gasol is an all star and Butter came on strong but you need stars to win. At the very least you need 1 superstar.

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 10:52 am 
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yes you need a superstar. rose is not one but is paid like one and they are fucked until he is gone and probably for a lot longer.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 10:53 am 
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Walt Williams Neck wrote:
Nas wrote:
Derrick Rose contract and GarPax inability to find another scorer hurt the Bulls. They've never been able to make the big trade or sign the big free agent. They always seem to finish 2nd.

Pau was big!


He played great but he was a 2nd or 3rd tier guy. LeBron, Bosh, Marshmelo were the top tier guys.

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 10:58 am 
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Nas wrote:
Walt Williams Neck wrote:
Nas wrote:
Derrick Rose contract and GarPax inability to find another scorer hurt the Bulls. They've never been able to make the big trade or sign the big free agent. They always seem to finish 2nd.

Pau was big!


He played great but he was a 2nd or 3rd tier guy. LeBron, Bosh, Marshmelo were the top tier guys.


2014-15 Season
PPG RPG BLKPG PER
18.5 11.8 1.9 22.73
Career
18.3 9.4 1.7

pretty good stats but if they could have had a Jamal Crawford-type instant offense guy coming off the bench,they would have been a lot more dangerous team without signing a superstar.

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 11:01 am 
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They need a guy that can create his own shot when the offense gets in trouble. Gasol gave them the inside presence they haven't had since Curry left but having a wing scorer like a Marshmelo (to a lesser degree Crawford) was more important.

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 11:04 am 
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...since Curry left???? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 11:10 am 
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bigfan wrote:
...since Curry left???? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


That's terrible but the Bulls haven't had a guy that could legitimately score in the post since Eddy Curry. That's about a decade without a post player.

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 11:16 am 
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And they just announced he was fired.

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